Amino's too much?

[PumpDogg]

Has anyone here ever noticed any appreciable gains from taking amino acids versus not? I know this trainer and he swears that his amino's ( of course his) are the next bet thing since sliced bread. They are quite pricey and you gotta take allot on the days u train, however he has a money back gaurentee or however you spell that.
BTW I am new here and this is my first post. Nice board.

PumpDogg :D

[FTC]

well let me be the first to say Welcome!

as far as aminos- the only related supp ive taken is dessicated liver tabs which are full of aminos. i never "felt" or noticed any difference, and its not like it mattered cause you can get tubs of them for pretty cheap. your trainers aminos sound kinda gimmicky.

[PumpDogg]

Yeah that is what I was thinking, besides he has me taking 15 pre and post wrkout along with an amino drink. He claims that all the amino's trick your body into burning fat ( after the workout) due to the brain reading the surge of amino's and nothing being in your gut. I dont know but these things are $70.00 for 500 count, and $40.00 for the drink. I am looking at spending 100 bucks a month just on aminos. Here is the break down of them and they are made by SST and pushed by infinityfitness:

Muscle Synthesis: Product Name

Serving size 2 caps

vitamin B6 1mg

Proprieatary blend of amino
acids: 1337mg

L-Leucine
L-Isolecuine
L-Methionine
L-Valine
L-Threonine
Taurine
L-Lysine
L-Arginine


100% MR:Product Name

Serving size 2 rounded scoops

Niacin 10mg

Vitamin B6 2mg

L-Glutamine 2700mg

Proprieatary Amino Acid Blend 6000mg

L-Isoleucine
L-Leucine
L-Valine
L-Taurine

Thanks for the rply FTC, looks like a really nice board.

PD

[liftsiron]

Welcome to QM, aminos are good but imo you can make the same gains on a good protien powder for a fraction of the cost. A good quality whey is loaded with all the aminos.

[PumpDogg]

Scott Mendelson is my trainer and he said that eating whey protein, which is something I have always done, spikes your insulin levels and is not ideal for fat loss. So do u think I got scammed? I only eat whey after my workout, the rest of my food comes from whole food sources. I know that is a great way to eat, however it is quite expensive and time consuming. Thanx for the replys I appreciate the help.

PD

[FTC]

whey is good post workout. i dont know if it spikes your insulin alone, but you want it spiked. thats why you take a simple sugar like dextrose along with it post workout.

[PumpDogg]

Right however he says throughout the day whey is not a good protein source to consume because he says it spikes your insulin levels and causes abdomianl fat. I had never heard of it, that is why I am asking the real pro's. He has me consuming whey post workout and that is all. Whole food the rest of the day... steak, chicken, shrimp. etc...

PD

[BIG SVEN]

Whole food is ALWAYS better than any supp protein. I cringe when I see guys postin their diet of miniscule amounts of real food & 14 shakes a day. There is NO comparision IMO.
As for amino supps. I SWEAR by my BCAA's .. I chow a handful in my truck in the gym parking lot before I even pull out of my parking spot. Wash em' down w/ my post shake (NOT a lo-carb one) & I am good to go. I REALLY do believe my gains have been more rapid, noticalbe & keepable when I stick to this regime. As far as I am concerned if there is ANY chance they help me in ANY way w/ my growth...I'm in. Simple as that. W/ all the $$ I spend of gear...it is a cheap addition to the equation. As always...JMHO

[FTC]

[QUOTE=PumpDogg]Right however he says throughout the day whey is not a good protein source to consume because he says it spikes your insulin levels and causes abdomianl fat. I had never heard of it, that is why I am asking the real pro's. He has me consuming whey post workout and that is all. Whole food the rest of the day... steak, chicken, shrimp. etc...

PD[/QUOTE]


yes that makes sense, but you said you only take whey post workout and eat whole food the rest of the day. :eat: :p thats good! keep it that way :flex:

[PumpDogg]

Cool, I will let you all know how things turn out on these "certain amino's".


PD

[Superior1]

His aminos sounds crazy high. He is correct in saying that they do stimulate fat loss.


Below is pulled from a medical journal, I'll high light some key points in blue.
You will see as stated below that BCAA's aid both protein synthesis and as well as aid in anti-catabolism, These aminos acids have great ketogenic properties which result in causing the body to burn fat for energy versus sugars. They are also glycogenic in it's mechanism which has a multi angle effect of burning sugars as energy as well. This is the reasons that many individuals sees nicely full and saturated muscles as well as an increase in leanness from higher doses. Higher doses is the key!! And you can't get higher doses from paying half your monthly income on them!! I'll post more info as I find it. The below post is in reference to a medical trial. I'll find some others that back it up.

Branched-Chain Amino
Acids (L-Leucine, L-
Isoleucine, L-Valine)


DESCRIPTION
The branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) comprise the three essential amino acids L-leucine, L-isoleucine and L-valine. These amino acids are found in proteins of all life forms. Dietary sources of the branched-chain amino acids are principally derived from animal and vegetable proteins. Vegetables and juices contain small amounts of the free amino acids, which are also found in fermented foods like yogurt and miso.


Branched-chain amino acids are sometimes used in enteral and parenteral feedings in the management of hepatic encephalopathy. They are also occasionally used enterally and parenterally in the management of extensive burns and other severe trauma conditions because of their possible anticatabolic action in these conditions.

L-leucine is also known as 2-amino-4-methylvaleric acid, alpha-aminoisocaproic acid and (S)-2-amino-4-methylpentanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Leu or by its one letter abbreviation L. Its molecular formula is C6H13NO2, and its molecular weight is 131.17 daltons. The structural formula is:


L-isoleucine is also known as 2-amino-3-methylvaleric acid, alpha-amino-beta-methylvaleric acid and (2S, 3S)-2-amino-3-methylpentanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Ile or by its one letter abbreviation I. Its molecular formula is C 6H13NO2, and its molecular weight is 131.17 daltons. The structural formula is:

L-valine is also known as 2-aminoisovaleric acid, 2-amino-3-methylbutyric acid, alpha-aminoisovaleric acid and (S)-2-amino-3-methylbutanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Val, and its one letter abbreviation is V. Its molecular formula is C5H11NO2, and its molecular weight is 117.15 daltons. The structural formula is:

The branched-chain amino acids are sometimes classified as large neutral amino acids or LNAAs.

ACTIONS AND PHARMACOLOGY
ACTIONS
The branched-chain amino acids may have antihepatic encephalopathy activity in some. They may also have anticatabolic and antitardive dyskinesia activity in some.

MECHANISM OF ACTION
[COLOR=Blue]Although amino acids are not considered important energy sources, BCAAs serve as important fuel sources for skeletal muscle during periods of metabolic stress. (i.e. training) Under such conditions, BCAAs may promote protein synthesis, suppress protein catabolism and serve as substrates for gluconeogenesis. BCAAs are mainly catabolized in skeletal muscle, stimulating the production of, among other substances, L-alanine and L-glutamine.[/COLOR]


PHARMACOKINETICS
Following ingestion, the BCAAs are absorbed from the small intestine by a sodium-dependent active-transport process and transported to the liver via the portal circulation. [COLOR=Blue]In the liver, the BCAAs can serve as substrates for protein synthesis. [/COLOR] Some catabolism of the BCAAs occurs in the liver. The catabolism of L-leucine, L-isoleucine and L-valine initially involves the same three reactions: the conversion of the amino acids to their corresponding alpha-keto acids; the conversion of the alpha-keto acids to their corresponding acyl-CoA thioesters and carbon dioxide; and the conversion of the acyl-CoA thioesters to their corresponding alpha, beta-unsaturated acyl-CoA thioesters. The enzyme deficiency in the inborn error of metabolism maple syrup urine disease is in the conversion of the acyl-CoA thioesters to the alpha, beta-unsaturated acyl-CoA thioesters, via the enzyme branched-chain alpha-keto acid decarboxylase.

L-leucine, L-isoleucine and L-valine are catabolized differently starting from their corresponding acyl-CoA thioesters. [COLOR=Blue]L-leucine, which is a ketogenic amino acid,[/COLOR] is converted via a number of metabolic steps to beta-hydroxy-beta-methyl-glutaryl-CoA, which in turn is converted to acetoacetic acid and acetyl-CoA. The B vitamin biotin participates in this pathway. [COLOR=Blue]L-isoleucine, which is both glycogenic and ketogenic,[/COLOR] is converted via a number of metabolic steps to alpha-methyl-acetoacetyl-CoA, which in turn is converted to acetyl-CoA (ketogenic) and propionyl-CoA (glycogenic). Finally, the glycogenic L-valine is converted via a number of steps to methylmalonyl-CoA and then, with the assistance of vitamin B12, to succinyl-CoA.

The BCAAs are distributed to the various tissues of the body via the systemic circulation. [COLOR=Blue]The BCAAs appear to be preferentially taken up by skeletal muscle,[/COLOR] where they undergo similar catabolic reactions to those described above. Skeletal muscle appears to be the major site of both BCAA transamination and oxidation in humans. BCAAs are also taken up by other organs, particularly the brain and kidney, where they also undergo oxidation.

INDICATIONS AND USAGE
[COLOR=Blue]There is preliminary evidence that BCAAs may prevent muscle catabolism and promote protein synthesis in some trauma subjects and, possibly, in some exercises. There is no evidence that they are effective for enhancement of athletic performance. Neither have they proved useful in treating amotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). In one trial, BCAAs reduced symptoms of tardive dyskinesia. They have also been used with some benefit in some with phenylketonuria.[/COLOR]

RESEARCH SUMMARY
Meta-analyses have produced conflicting and largely ambiguous results with respect to the role, if any, that BCAAs may play in the prevention or treatment of hepatic encephalopathy. One group of researchers concluded several years ago that BCAAs might be helpful in treating some with advanced cirrhosis who are intolerant to alimentary proteins. More recently, a consensus review written under the auspices of the European society for parenteral and enteral nutrition, [COLOR=Blue]similarly concluded that BCAAs might be indicated in that small number of patients intolerant to the supplementary dietary proteins needed to achieve nitrogen balance in this condition.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]There is some preliminary evidence that BCAAs might help prevent muscle catabolism and promote protein synthesis in those with various forms of trauma. In one very small study, BCAAs were reported to inhibit protein breakdown in five men exercising the knee extensor muscles. Another very small study suggested that BCAAs might have inhibited muscle glycogen degradation during exercise.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Blue]On the other hand, there is no credible evidence that BCAAs have any significant effect on exercise performance. In a study of well-trained cyclists, BCAAs had no effect on performance in a 100-kilometer trial.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]There were some early reports suggesting that BCAAs might help ameliorate some of the symptoms of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS). In one of these studies, ALS patients receiving 12 grams of L-leucine, 8 grams of L-isoleucine and 6.4 grams of L-valine daily for one year showed significant benefit, as measured by maintenance of muscle strength in extremities and walking ability. Those receiving placebo in this small study showed a linear decline in these parameters consistent with the normal course of this disease.[/COLOR]

CONTRAINDICATIONS, PRECAUTIONS, ADVERSE REACTIONS
CONTRAINDICATIONS
Branched-chain amino acids are contraindicated in those with the rare inborn errors of metabolism maple syrup urine disease and isovaleric acidemia. BCAAs are also contraindicated in those with hypersensitivity to any component of a BCAA-containing supplement.

PRECAUTIONS
Pregnant women and nursing mothers should avoid BCAA supplementation.

OVERDOSAGE
No reports of overdosage.

DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION
Branched-chain amino acids are available for enteral and parenteral nutrition in the management of hepatic encephalopathy and metabolic stress conditions.

Nutritional supplements of BCAAs are available. Dosage is variable. Some combination BCAA products include other nutrients such as biotin and vitamin B12, which are involved in the metabolism of the BCAAs.

HOW SUPPLIED
Capsules

Powder

Tablets

[COLOR=Red]LITERATURE
Abeta S, Inoue N, Matsui H, Yoshino Y. [Effect of branched-chain amino acids on glutamate neurotoxicity in primary cultured rat cerebral neurons.] [Article in Japanese.] Rinsho Shinkeigaku. 1995; 35:420-423.

Austic RE, Su C-L, Strupp BJ, Levitsky DA. Effects of dietary mixtures of amino acids on fetal growth and maternal and fetal amino acid pools in experimental maternal phenylketonuria. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999; 69:687-696.

Bastone A, Michel. A, Beghi E, Salmona M. The imbalance of brain large-chain amino acid availability in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis patients treated with high doses of branched-chain amino acids. Neurochem Int. 1995; 27:467-472.

Berry HK, Brunner RL, Hunt MM, White PP. Valine, isoleucine and leucine. A new treatment for phenylketonuria. Am J Dis Child. 1990; 144:539-543.

Fabbri A, Magrini N, Bianchi G, et al. Overview of randomized clinical trials of oral branched-chain amino acid treatment in chronic hepatic encephalopathy. J Parenter Enteral Nutr. 1996; 20:159-164.

MacLean DA, Graham TE, Saltin B. Stimulation of muscle ammonia production during exercise following branched-chain amino acid supplementation in humans. J Physiol (Lond). 1996; 493(Pt3):909-922.

Maddrey WC. Branched chain amino acid therapy in liver disease. J Am Coll Nutr. 1985; 4:639-650.

Madsen K, Maclean DA, Kiens B, Christensen D. Effects of glucose, glucose plus branched-chain amino acids, or placebo on bike performance over 100km. J Appl Physiol. 1996; 81:2644-2650.

Marchesini G, Bianchi G, Rossi B, et al. Nutritional treatment with branched-chain amino acids in advanced liver cirrhosis. J Gastroenterol. 2000; 35 Suppl 12:7-12.

Marchesini G, Zoli M, Dondi C, et al. Anticatabolic effect of branched-chain amino acid-enriched solutions with liver cirrhosis. Hepatology. 1982; 2:420-425.

Pelosi G, Proietti R, Magalini SI, et al. Anticatabolic properties of branched chain amino acids in trauma. Resuscitation. 1983; 10:153-158.

Plaitakis A, Smith J, Mandeli J, Yahr MD. Pilot trial of branched-chain amino acids in amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Lancet. 1988; 1(8593):1015-1018.

Richardson MA, Bevans ML, Weber JB, et al. Branched chain amino acids decrease tardive dyskinesia symptoms. Psychopharmacol. 1999; 143:358-364.

Suryawan A, Hawes JW, Harris RA, et al. A molecular model of human branched-chain amino acid metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 1998; 68:72-81.

Tandan R, Bromberg MB, Forshew D, et al. A controlled trial of amino acid therapy in amyotropic lateral sclerosis: I. Clinical, functional, and maximum isometric torque data. Neurology. 1996; 47 -1226.

Testa D, Caraceni T, Fetoni V. Branched-chain amino acids in the treatment of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. J Neurol. 1989; 236:445-447.

The Italian ALS Study Group. Branched-chain amino acids and amyotrophic sclerosis: a treatment failure? Neurology. 1993; 43:2466-2470.[/COLOR]

[Superior1]

Make note of the charactoristic traits of certain aminos. They do trigger certain mechanisms that aid in overall physique enhancement. The only people I have heard that see a bigger difference it those taking 20-30 grams 3x's a day. The only way to afford this is by taking it in powder form mixed with shakes. Capsules can be added for conveinence such as the times your NOT taking shakes. But it's doesn't help with the cost effectiveness. If you're paying more than $35 per kilo for your powdered BCAA's or .12 a gram capped, then your paying too much!!

[PumpDogg]

What brand do you recommend then? I dont want to waste anymore money. Since supplementation I have increased the loads on all my lifts in the gym for 3 weeks now. I dont think it is a placebo effect. I have been told be others that Extreme Formulations make a very good amino for pre and post. I dunno, if I buy in bulk then who and where?
Thanks

PD

[liftsiron]

[QUOTE=PumpDogg]Scott Mendelson is my trainer and he said that eating whey protein, which is something I have always done, spikes your insulin levels and is not ideal for fat loss. So do u think I got scammed? I only eat whey after my workout, the rest of my food comes from whole food sources. I know that is a great way to eat, however it is quite expensive and time consuming. Thanx for the replys I appreciate the help.

PD[/QUOTE]


Nelson Montana has said the same thing but has been refuted by many on these boards. I personally don't believe that whey inhibits fat loss, I also believe that whole food sources of protein are best.


Here is just one of many studies that prove Nelson and Scott dead wrong about whey.

Nutrient Metabolism
A High-Whey-Protein Diet Reduces Body Weight Gain and Alters Insulin Sensitivity Relative to Red Meat in Wistar Rats1,2
Damien P. Belobrajdic*,, Graeme H. McIntosh*,,3 and Julie A. Owens*

* Discipline of Physiology, School of Molecular and Biomedical Science, University of Adelaide, Adelaide, SA, 5000, Australia; and Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization Health Sciences and Nutrition, Adelaide, SA, 5000, Australia



3To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: mcintoshs@iprimus.com.au.

A high-protein diet can reduce body weight and increase insulin sensitivity, but whether the type of dietary protein affects these outcomes is unknown. We hypothesized that feeding insulin-resistant rats a high-protein diet (32%) containing whey protein concentrate (WPC) would reduce body weight and tissue lipid levels and increase insulin sensitivity more than a diet containing red meat (RM). Rats were fed a high-fat diet (300 g fat/kg diet) for 9 wk, then switched to a diet containing either 80 or 320 g protein/kg diet, provided by either WPC or RM, for 6 wk (n = 8). The rats were then killed after overnight food deprivation. High dietary protein reduced energy intake (P < 0.001) and visceral (P < 0.001), subcutaneous (P < 0.001), and carcass fat (P < 0.05). Increasing the dietary density of WPC, but not of RM, reduced body weight gain by 4% (P < 0.001). Dietary WPC also reduced plasma insulin concentration by 40% (P < 0.05) and increased insulin sensitivity, compared to RM (P < 0.05). These findings support the conclusions that a high-protein diet reduces energy intake and adiposity and that whey protein is more effective than red meat in reducing body weight gain and increasing insulin sensitivity.

[PumpDogg]

Thought I would give you all an update of how things went on amino's. I have continued to make appreciable gains on the amino's I had bought and have since started taking Extreme Formulations Ice with Amino 2222 from Optimum. I will see if these compare to the results I have had thus far. The tablets are huge and hard to swallow even broke in half. I think I will just slightly chew them and swallow. BTW I have lost 18 pounds while increasing my lifts each and everyweek, as well as an overall improvement in body comp

PD

[Deacon]

amino supps are good if you eat poorly - with plenty of nutrient rich food most amino supps are simply pissed away

[PumpDogg]

They seem to work very well for me, and I do not eat poorly. I rotate food choices protein... steak, chicken, tuna, fish , tenderloin.... carbs brown rice, yams, fruits and vegies everyday. I snack on mixed nuts without peanuts, natty PB etc... I have always thought amino's were a waste, however with my most recent use of them I must admit they have done well, and I have been on a reduced carb intake which I know makes them more helpful for me. Just my 2 cents

PD